Podcast: REI Spotlight

Episode: You need more than a 401k with Spencer Hilligoss

Transcription below.

Dave: [00:00:00] So. Welcome to Spotlight. Your host is David Swam, and today's guest is Spencer Hilligoss. Spencer has a 13 year record building high performance teams, adding as a currently executive leader for two real estate companies, Madison Investing, which has approximately 3000 units worth 328 million. And he also works for LendingHome, who has lent over $4 billion in the fix and flip industry. Welcome to the show, Spencer. How can give us a little bit more about your background?

Spencer: [00:00:37] Yeah, thanks so much for having me, David. Excited to be on the show. Thank you for being here. Yeah, it's a great way to start the day. So a little bit about me. It's pretty simple. I live out here in the Bay Area, California. I was professionally kind of reared into the local business and the local business here is tech companies. And so the journey that people typically follow when they join that kind of career over 13 years is they start chasing the big exit and they go into these early stage startups. I started fortunately, I started at a big company in a Fortune 500 company, learned the ropes and then went to a bunch of small start ups and everyone jumps in thinking, this is the next Google, this is the next Facebook, this is the next Uber. And I hate to break it to most people, that is not always the case. And so, you know, I think a few years back I finally realized that and I actually joined a my current day job, which is Lendinghome. And, you know, the biggest fix and flip lender in the nation. We're doing 500 loans a month. So I was surrounded by flippers who ended up going off in many cases and starting their own flip shops.

Spencer: [00:01:47] And they were in my ear telling me over and over, You should become a flipper, you should become a flipper. That's a very admirable and challenging and noble trade. That said, I was just drawn to multifamily for so many wonderful reasons that we can go into here in a moment. So now we actively and passively invest. And so we have those 3000 units and that is comprised of GP equity share for like 80% of that. So we own like meaningful pieces of those 3000 units with many other partners in many geographies. But also we passively invest. And so we passively invest as limited partners in amazing other deals across multifamily, you know, self-storage as well as mobile home parks. So I could talk your ear off about that, but that's me in summation. In all fairness, I did start my real estate career when I was about probably 7 or 8 years old when my dad was a broker in the peninsula here in the Bay Area. He used to sell these mansions for, you know, tech executives of the 90s. And I had to do, you know, I had to do open houses, whatever a kid who's eight years old could do. And eventually I was doing doing those things in high school.

Dave: [00:03:00] You started you out young and made you do some some sweat equity. Even at eight, it's like, yeah, you're going to. Welcome to the business. Here you go. Yeah. You may only be able to point people to the cookie tray and your big your big ask right there was. Don't eat the cookies. Tell them where they're at. That's right. Besides pointing to your stomach and going here, you know, besides that, you know, it probably was pretty good from there.

Spencer: [00:03:25] Oh, for sure. And at the time, I didn't always necessarily acknowledge or realize it was pretty cool. I mean, it actually, in all fairness, really I hated it. I hated it in high school. I had to sit there putting on like a tie and standing there in this really beautiful house touring it through people. And, you know, I look back at moments where I got to, like, shake hands with like, Joe Montana and like. And at the time, I'm like, This sucks. I would rather be hanging out with my friends, but in hindsight, that's pretty cool. That's actually it's like, yeah.

Dave: [00:03:55] I've got to shake hands with Joe Montana. There's not, you know, it's, you know, that list is, you know, it's a pretty long list because he's popular and he's a sociable guy. But it's still, you know, it's not everybody can say that. That's right.

Spencer: [00:04:09] So I'm thankful for that. But these days, my wife and partner and I are growing. Madison You know, at first I would say we thought it was just going to be a side hustle a few years ago. I'm one of the rare people in this real estate investing community who can say this, despite the fact it's probably a little blasphemous, which is I don't hate my day job. David. And so I actually think I enjoy my co-workers and I think every single day I'm talking to new investors that want to work with us on projects and they're sitting there going, Oh, should I become a flipper or should I go and be active? And I'm like, Do you hate your job? And they say, Well, no. I'm like, Well, just why don't you become a real estate investor passively? Why don't you just continue working that $250,000 a year engineering job at Facebook and then invest your excess savings into projects that are going to get you a better return. That's just. That's fine. That's a very respectable strategy. And it works well.

Dave: [00:05:07] I mean, I mean, look, we all can't you know, I've chosen to do real estate full time, but that's because I didn't like my day job. So, you know, it didn't work for me. I kind of I get kind of jealous of those guys that do have those, you know, like you said, you know, it's like I'm an engineer at Google and I enjoy my job. Well, by all means, keep doing your job. Just, you know, partner partner with, you know, people who are doing it and just invest passively, like you said, you know, it's like totally it's it's amazing if, you know, if you have a day job and I know some, some some other investors that have some pretty cool day jobs and it's like, oh, dude, I mean, as long as you're enjoying it and you're, you know, you enjoy your job and you're killing it, why would you ever change? You know? And it's like and that's that's their philosophy, you know, it's like, look, not everybody who invests in real estate wants to do it full time or really, you know, I don't want everybody because then I might not have good doctors. I might not have good lawyers. You know, it's it's we need those other professionals that like, look, go do what you enjoy and do full time and, you know, and just reap the benefits on the side and invest it with people who want to do it full time. You know? So certainly, you know, not everybody needs to be in it full time. So I get your point. Like if you have a day job you enjoy, keep doing it. That's you consider yourself blessed.

Spencer: [00:06:30] You know, I think not only is that an on point comment, I think even talking to some folks recently, because real estate has become so popular and it's it's something that the bug has bitten many of us. Right. And I think it's a beautiful thing when people start to realize like their 401. K is not necessarily a great idea. And when they get into that mindset and they pick up a book or they start getting into some of the amazing podcasts that I adore that are really focused on the narrative of Quit Your Job. And I would just caution them against that because once they realize a lot of the folks that go down a path that may be fully active, they're they are their own person. They're just their own person. They have their own journey. And if you're in a spot where you have 2 or 3 kids, maybe more, you are both working. Let's say there's a lot of dual income parents, particularly in the geography of where I live, because they have to. It's just too expensive to live in the coast. You and I were talking about before we kicked off the podcast, um, they have to sit there and take stock of the many benefits of maintaining that that that that that career and that employment status like try to go get a home loan when you're not a W-2 employee like it's just it's going to be different.

Dave: [00:07:46] It definitely is it's yeah yeah I agree with you you know it's there's some great podcasts out there. But like you said, you know, it's like, look, if you enjoy your day job and you have a great day job and they take care of you, why would you change? I mean, you know, it's and like you said, you know, it's like, look, even you know, it's like, look, if you're not ready to handle everything that comes with just being an entrepreneur and just being out there on your own and, you know, it's a team sport. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it's like, look, there's there's there's risks and rewards for everything that we do. And when you, you know, if you have a day job that you like, why quit it? I mean, you know, because, you know, there's some people, you know, it's it's driven that way because there's a lot of people that would rather be doing this than their day job. And I understand and I agree with those. I'm one of those. But yeah, like if if you don't if you like your day job, just look, you can you can reap the benefits of real estate without having to do it full time.

Spencer: [00:08:47] Yeah. Well that and you know, I think most people if they get to that point where they realize, oh, I can do both, then you get into more of like the how and you know, like how do I decide to either get into it in addition to my day job or how do I do it either passively or even like semi actively outside the core hours that I'm that I'm working and then balancing that with family life and with friends and with the big the big wonderful world out there outside, just the, you know, the the many books and podcasts and underwriting spreadsheets that we all stare at. Yeah. And I'm happy to talk more about the how even when we have time.

Dave: [00:09:24] Oh, no, go ahead. Go ahead. We can dig it. We can dig in a little bit more into the how right now. And we're we're like you said, you know, if you were talking about, you know, some of your passive investors out there, you know, you mentioned that you had some some some good mindsets or, you know, where their mindset is with the with the tech guys that you work with.

Spencer: [00:09:47] Yeah. You know, so this is just a fascinating observation. So originally we really thought when we were building up this business and we were like we had struck up great partners embedded in each region that we wanted to go focus on, whether it's like Texas or Florida and a couple others on the East Coast like South Carolina. And we start partnering with these like construction experts that know how to swing a hammer, thank God, because don't you know, people who actually are able to go and have like really awesome broker relationships that we could form, you know, general partner partnerships with? So we felt good about that. So we're trying to think like, who are the people that we could partner with more so on like the limited partner side. I thought we were going to go more of that direction where it was purely maybe they're doctors, dentists, physicians, because that that those those types of investors, they're too busy. They're highly educated in a very narrow way. And we thought maybe they want to go and invest and find find find those amazing returns, like more so than other people. But then I quickly realized the narrative that I have experienced as a tech executive across five software companies is the common journey of the people that live out here in the Bay Area. You know, you have this narrative of people that work extraordinarily hard. They were working like the way I was working in my last company where I had 16 hour days, including weekend work.

Spencer: [00:11:14] And then they think this is going to all be worth it because I'm eventually going to hit that big exit. And that exit in the tech community simply means an IPO. That's the most brandable kind of sexy sounding thing that happens out there. Yeah, definitely. Or or a big company comes in and buys a small company, which is more common. And so in that moment, these tech folks, these are brilliant in many cases way smarter than I am. Like, you know, they're, they're highly educated, academic badasses and they are so like, you look at their track records on paper and you're like, wow, Like, I'm humbled by your accomplishments. But then you talk to them about how they decide to plan for the future financially and it resonates because I'm like, Wow, that's where I was at. So I was working for for this company working 16 hour days, thinking that I was super proud of where my 401K had gotten over the last 13 years. And I'm like, Man, that's great. It's like a six digit number. I'm so set up for retirement. And then I look at the calculators, I start reading more. I start I read like something like 24 books on the space, like listen to something like 400 podcasts plus and just become the biggest nerd you can imagine, as I'm sure that you have as well, and many other people who achieved success in this space. You have to. Yeah.

Dave: [00:12:32] You definitely got to dig in.

Spencer: [00:12:35] Yeah, you just got to dig in. There's no way around it. And so I just realized, like, this is the playbook that they are expecting to work purely because that's what everybody does and that's what I thought was going to happen. I thought I'd eventually land in a startup where I'd make the big exit. And then it occurred to me like one of the companies that did work for is likely to have that exit. And I'm excited. It's not real yet, but maybe it will. So let's play that out, whether it's me or one of them. They get a seven figure check. What the heck are they going to do with that? Do they have any idea? Put it in an index fund. That's not a bad thing. Are they going to put it into a savings account? You know, think I was excited the other day because I got a new emergency fund account and I won't say the company, but it was like 2.7% or something really great, almost keeping up with inflation. Great. And there's just no thought process that looks that far out and has a legitimate strategy for what to do when when you have to actually put that capital to work. Let alone you want that thing to become a lifestyle changing element for you.

Dave: [00:13:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's not you don't want to take that especially, you know, some of these guys, you know, it's, you know, it's like, look, you know, they're, they're either hoping or wanting it to be like a one time thing so they don't have to go back and do that 16 hour grind all over again in ten years because they blew through this big chunk that they got. You know, they want to get it and make it work for them so that they don't necessarily I mean, if they enjoy that 16 hour day, I'm pretty sure they're going to go back and do a 16 hour day because now they can afford to do what they enjoy. But, you know, it's a it's a big different story when it's like, okay, I did that. I got where it is. I've you know, I sold my 16 hour days and I've reaped this big reward for it. Now, how do I make this perpetuate where I can go work 16 hours again if I want to, but if I don't want to, this takes care of me.

Spencer: [00:14:40] That's exactly right. You know. I don't know if if you recall this one example, but it's stuck with me so much from this is Robert Kiyosaki reference. Of course we have to can't get through a podcast without one of those. I was about.

Dave: [00:14:53] To say there's not a I don't think there's a real estate podcast out there that his name is not mentioned somewhere in it for sure. It's got to be.

Spencer: [00:15:01] List in there. So it's just the buckets and pipeline comparison. Definitely. And the old and just for the sake of your listeners, I'll say it, but it resonated with me when thought if you get a tech exit or any other think of any large one time liquidity event. Yes, maybe. Maybe you inherit a huge sum of money. Maybe you are sitting there and you have like a lawsuit. You're on the other side of something, hopefully not like a devastating car crash, but something that results in you getting a big, you know, a big liquidity event. And you sit there and you ask yourself, like, how do I go? Instead of having that bucket as Kiyosaki says, the bucket that you want, you need to go fill up. If that were to be full of cash, full of capital, dump it in, dump it into your house, you to go back and pick it up again. And as opposed to building the pipeline, the pipeline metaphor is simply saying something that's sustainable, continually flows and is able to actually sustain you and your lifestyle. And to play it out analogy and metaphor because it's so popularized.

Spencer: [00:16:01] But it's always resonated with me deeply. Like it was one of the things that stuck with me originally when I was getting into this stuff a few years ago. But I bring all that up because ultimately, you know, just stepping back from the this whole discussion of buckets and pipelines and tech exits and stuff, we're not doing this for the money. Like like, like I'm doing this because I want to be a present father. I want to be a present husband. I would like to stop having to rush down to every minute, dropping my my sons off at school and picking them up and being concerned like I'm not going to be able to get there in time. I want to be able to expose them to to more world cultures by having us have the ability and freedom to travel and the ability to go like live in Spain for a few years when they get older. Now I'm going to take on a two year old on that experience.

Dave: [00:16:49] Think about I don't think I don't think they'll quite get the experience quite yet.

Spencer: [00:16:55] Not yet. So we have a little time buffer. But but you know, that's what it's all about is ultimately I don't want to stop working. I think some people think when they get into either particularly, I think passive investing in particular, people think it's about I'm going to go make all these investments and then sit on a beach that sounds eventually really boring and I get stir crazy, really stir crazy. And so I would immediately just rule out the notion of, Oh, people go and invest to get cash flow so they can just kick it and I love video games. But I would not do that all day. I would optimize a work day, find a way to do meaningful work, give back to other people with learnings and knowledge, and also just community. And so it's it's that's to me what it's really all about. The, the, the passive stuff.

Dave: [00:17:48] Yeah that's I mean that's my point of view is it's, it's I don't want I'm not doing this to have cash flow so I can sit on my butt. It's I'm doing this so I have cash flow so that I can live my life the way that I choose, you know? I mean, it'd be nice to have the option if, you know, today, if I want to go sit on the beach, I can go sit on the beach. I'd rather, you know, go down to the Boys and Girls Club and, you know, help mentor some youth or, you know, help speak to some youth and help, you know, help pass this entrepreneurial spirit on to the youth, underprivileged somebody else, you know, be able to do. And that's the whole thing. It's like it doesn't you know, I do this so that when I wake up in the morning, I can be excited and I can just that I have the freedom to go do what I want. Now, me personally, I'm kind of like you. It's like, no, I'm yeah, I'll sit on the beach. But you know what? I'm kind of fair skinned. So like, my time on the beach is very limited, you know? So it's, you know, it's like, I've got to go.

Dave: [00:18:54] I'll spend some time and then I'm going, I'm on to something else. But it's like I just, you know, it's the whole freedom thing. And, you know, it's not it's not sitting on my butt. It's the freedom that I can go out and, you know, help expand this world and make this world a better place. That's why I want passive, you know, that's why I want the cash flow. That's why I want the passive income is so that I can just go make the world a better place. Whatever little piece that I can change, that I can go out and I can do that. And I don't have to worry about, you know, trading time for money. You know, it's, you know, it's instead of trading time for money, I'm teaching other people how they don't have to trade time for money. And to me, that's the ultimate thing of being able to spread this to as many people as possible and educating them. So. That's, you know, that's my reason why I want, you know, why I want the cash flow is because then I can improve the world around me.

Spencer: [00:19:48] I think to that point, it's such a good point. Like the way we are educated in particularly, I think people that are highly, highly successful business professionals as well as medical professionals like they they are so confident in their knowledge and they're so excellent at what they do. They're used to winning. They're also used to being right and good on them. They're way smarter than I am. But the one thing that holds them back as a result of that is the mainstream education we all receive financially is that you absolutely should put all your money into a 401K, put it on autopilot in a target date fund. Originally mine was like something like 2045 and then you just let it ride. And just like anything else in this life that people tend to learn eventually through scars and just painful learnings is that if something is really easy, the outcome is typically not going to be as great. And so like if you just sit there, dump your hard earned paychecks, as I've been doing for 13 years, into an automatically target fund 401K, you don't check out the fees are charging you. It whittles away at its value. Ultimately you're also acknowledging immediately on every paycheck. I can't use any of this stuff for 30 years and it does nothing for me until then.

Spencer: [00:21:08] And it assumes that I'm going to be poorer when I get there, because that's why they put the assumption like you're going to live on 80% of your income. Yeah, well, gee, how come? How come like highly successful professionals like, aren't sitting there pressure testing that assumption? Like, that's what I want to know. And like, I have a bone to pick with it because it's maybe it's the fact that like I was brought up in an environment by like an entrepreneur dad who was like who was a real estate entrepreneur. Maybe it's the fact that I played in too many punk and metal bands growing up so I had a chip on my shoulder about being contrarian, but like it is deeply satisfying when you're working with someone and they want to work. They want to like actually start talking about this crazy real estate stuff. Not they not only realize it's not crazy, they realize, Oh crap, I wish I had started this like 20 years ago. And look at the numbers as to where I could have been had I done that. So I'd better get started now. So it's sorry for the soapbox. It's just it's something that I encounter that more frequently now than ever.

Dave: [00:22:16] No, no, no, no, no. You're right. Because it's, you know, we've not been taught in school. It's kind of like, look, if you look back in the 1940s and 50s, there were ads for cigarettes that doctors recommended certain cigarettes for certain situations. You know, it's like we know that that is all completely bull crap now. You know, it's like, that's the worst thing in the world, you know? Right. You know, And that was accepted at that point in time. And, you know, it took years to be able to change that mindset on that side. And we're kind of facing something similar now is like, look, this 401K, you know, this this status quo that has been preached at for so long, it's like, well, it's not really accurate. You know, It's like it's better than, you know, I mean, you know, it's better than just throwing it into a savings account, you know, I mean, you know, 401K is better than doing just that. But, you know, it's like, look, there's there's so many you know, it's like, look, that was a 401K or an IRA. That was a model T. We've yeah, we've moved on, we've grown and there are, you know, there's Teslas out there now.

Dave: [00:23:26] You don't have to, you don't have to buy a model T That's right. It's, it's like look there's, there's Teslas, there's supercars, there's something that, that that fits whatever your flavor is. It's not some cookie cutter that a million people, you know that 300 million people, everybody's using the same thing because it's what we've been you know, it's what we've been sold is this is the cookie cutter for everybody. And it's like, look, totally. No, it's it's not. We've we've evolved. I mean, you know, the 401K we're talking terminology that started in the 80s. Um, what, what do you do today that is done the same way it was in 1985. Nothing. There is nothing today that was done that way in 1985. And it most likely, if you are doing it that way, there's probably a little bit better way of doing it. Now, about 90% of things are about that way, you know? So that's the whole thing. It's like, look, yeah, 401K at one point it it was a great thing. But we've evolved from there.

Spencer: [00:24:27] You know, not only that, I mean, I love that 1985 reference. Like it's just it brought, brought to mind a story and this is real from, from two weekends ago, I was in Texas. I was there for a conference. And then also I was there because I got to visit five of the properties that we've closed on in the past year. Um, turns out Dallas is a bigger place than originally thought, trying to drive around a five hour period.

Dave: [00:24:52] As I say, I've been to Dallas. I used to live in Texas. So yeah, that's a Dallas is a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger footprint than what you're used to.

Spencer: [00:25:03] It is sprawling and it was beautiful. I love it. But I talked to this driver. He's my Uber driver now, Lyft, Lyft driver, and he's a 76 year old former equities investor, stock investor. And he lost it. This is his description. He's like, We lost about 60% of their portfolio value around 2008, as many people did. And it's a tragedy like clearly it's not something that people look back on fondly. It brings back a lot of scary things for most people that that had had portfolios at that point. Um, and so he was, he was very knowledgeable on real estate. It was interesting. And he's the one that started the conversation with me and he started saying like, Oh, you work in multifamily. Oh, and you're out here to look at the properties that you've been working on. Oh, well, let me tell you my story about how we lost 60% of our portfolio and why I think in his words, it was the best thing ever. And he then he then proceeded to say, my wife and I did not think that that we would have so much expenses in retirement because you have all this extra time. You have to figure out what to do in that time.

Spencer: [00:26:11] You spend more money because you got to fill the time. So that 401K assumption of saying we're going to be living at 80% of our income and that's going to be sufficient is is bull crap. And it's not only that, it's utterly misleading. And so he says they're like, cool. He's validating point number one about what's wrong with that mindset. And then point number two, he's talking about the fact that he thought going all in on the stock market eventually would have like the stability and recovery of being able to at least be there for him when retirement age hit and he happened to catch a down cycle. And so it's it's he has he not only did he ask for my business card, he asked for me to give him all my business cards that had on me so he could hand them out to some of his his passengers that he thinks are too into stock investing just so they can go and like have some conversations and get some education out of it. So it was it was compelling and it really stuck with me because the guy was he had been so personally burned by that.

Dave: [00:27:07] Yeah. And that's just that personal. I mean, that's another personal story of, look, diversification. I mean, you know, you got to be across multiple things. You know, you can't you know, even if you like the stock market, you still shouldn't be have all your eggs in one basket, you know. And That's right. That's well, that's I mean, that's like, you know, it's like, look, multifamily is my favorite, but I don't want all my eggs in a multifamily basket. That's why they're self-storage totally parks and you know, that's why you spread out and you diversify, you know, overall. So it's like, yeah, if you're all in the stock market, it doesn't matter if you're diversified in the stock market, you shouldn't be all in the stock market. You should be, you know that you need that other pieces and other investments besides just going, Well, we're going to roll the dice with the stock market. I mean, you know, it's like, well, why don't you just go to Vegas? Yeah.

Spencer: [00:27:59] Well, yeah, but no, but you're hitting on a good point. You alluded to it, which is like although we talk about and I get very excited about real estate investing and generating things like passive income from it and cash flow, like it still isn't an 100% all in thing. It's, you know, just this week I'm literally rolling over a traditional IRA for my own is my own personal one. And then like an employer 401K I'm moving that into one of those very cool like eQRP accounts, which is going to let me invest into more, more types of assets. But I'm not getting rid of all stock like I'm not I'm not getting rid of bond investments either. It's just about making sure you're thoughtful and diversified and diversification is still a good idea, in my opinion. Just my opinion. I'm absolutely not a qualified licensed advisor.

Dave: [00:28:51] Neither. Neither am I. Just throw that out there too, either. It's like, look, these are my opinions, but they are not certified opinions of any type.

Spencer: [00:29:01] 100% unlicensed.That is just my opinion and my personal choices with my own funds. So I do think it makes sense. Have some stocks. Sure. Have some bonds. Sure. Go heavy on the real estate. Absolutely. Um, and then maybe, you know, we'll probably even do some precious metals and all that good stuff too. But like, I can't emphasize enough like how people tend to hear this, particularly out here when I'm talking to our newer investors. It's such a magical moment when I hear them realize capital gains investing is not the only thing that they need to stick with. And the fact that a dividend, as we've typically been conditioned to think of them, where you put money into if it's a dividend generating stock and it spits out a number and you look at that number and you're like. Oh, that's nice. As opposed to. Oh, cool. I can pay my rent this month. Yeah. Yeah. I would prefer the latter. And I have yet to find, you know, a stock market type investment that produces a dividend that allows you to actually make decisions differently about how you pay for your life's expenses monthly. So if someone does know those, please tell me. I would love to find out about those too, but I haven't found them, so.

Dave: [00:30:14] Yeah, it's like, look, if you know it's out there. Yeah, contact me. Because I'd be interested in learning more, you know? Yeah, exactly. You know, I like this vehicle because this is what this vehicle provides for me right now. But, you know, hey, you know, if I have a Lamborghini and you know of a Ferrari, I'll look at that Ferrari. But I haven't seen any out there. I've only seen this one. So, you know, if you have, Yeah. Let us know. But you know, it's this is the best one that I've found along the way, in my opinion. So, you know, that's, that's I'm going to stick and ride with this until somebody finds me something better. And I think they've got a they have a hard task ahead of them if they're if that's what they're looking for.

Spencer: [00:30:57] That's right. It is.

Dave: [00:31:00] Um. Well, Spencer, how do you. How do you like to give back to your community?

Spencer: [00:31:07] Yeah. I mean, frankly, at this point, I'll just share briefly on kind of what our long term vision would be. Um, so my business partner and my wife, Jennifer Morimoto, um, ideally we want to be able to go and this is like a 3 to 5 year vision, but, you know, I think we're on track for it. We want to figure out how we can marry the notion of financial literacy and education with the ability to be a GP that is still providing solid returns to limited partners that want to work with us and think that we can do that. Not only not only am I confident in that, it just you see the need for it every day. There are even smaller meetups that you can notice, whether it's around the Bay Area, around some other metro areas that are focused on things like financial literacy. However, I will say that they tend to stop around just the basics, you know, and like like example would be they tend to hit on things such as make sure you pay down your credit cards every month. Cool, actually. I mean, clearly, I agree with that advice. Like, yes, please go pay down your credit cards. And I'm speaking from personal experience of someone who had a really rough run in my early 20 seconds with having way too much fun and racking up an impressive bill. And so I did. We did pay that down. My wife and I got out of debt together.

Spencer: [00:32:27] Now, we're never going to do that again. So I agree with that advice. The problem is it stops around that level and it assumes that people can't handle more. Yeah, and people are smart. I really do believe that people are smart, but but they need to be engaged in a way that is actually meaningful. So our goal would be at this point, the projects we work on, they have a community aspect to them, at least the tenants in these multifamily projects. There are events that are scheduled that are specifically just around community building. It hasn't taken off with like the financial literacy component yet, but that is part of our roadmap and we want to figure out how we can marry. Particularly, I would say multifamily as well as also mobile home parks with a financial literacy angle to it. But in the meantime, get back to my community every week by mentoring people pro bono and do that in the real estate community. Now, somehow that just came up because people keep hanging out to me now, don't have a coaching program that's paid, but I do take the time just to make sure that I can mentor people whenever I can. So I try to give back in that regard, as well as just trying to be, you know, trying to frame projects and frame, you know, this education stuff whenever possible that I can. But, you know, that's a long winded answer to your question.

Dave: [00:33:41] No, that's that's that's an awesome thing. And, you know, I mean, actually, you hit on something there that I'd never really even considered or thought of because, you know, I'm kind of on the same path of being able to share education and financial literacy with with other people and helping people get on a path where they have more control of their life. But I'd never really thought about it of tying like multifamily and, you know, being able to do events at, you know, at properties and being able to figure out how to do those events at the properties to help your tenants, you know, be able to, to, to increase their financial knowledge. I guess, you know, it's just sometimes you don't put, you know, it's like, wow, that makes perfect sense. I just didn't hadn't married those two together. So actually, that's a that's that's an amazing journey and an amazing thought process. I really I really love that angle. That's that's that's amazing.

Spencer: [00:34:34] Cool. Yeah. I mean, just hold us to it. We got a lot of work to do to get there, but. Yeah.

Dave: [00:34:38] Well, well.

Spencer: [00:34:39] Go to.

Dave: [00:34:40] Work. As I say, you know, reach out to me if. If you need help on those projects, reach back out to me. I'd gladly, gladly, you know, want to want to connect and help you with that. Speaking of connecting, how can my listeners, if they want to get ahold of you and learn a little bit more, or how what's the best way for them to contact you?

Spencer: [00:35:02] Yeah, so we have a website and a mailing list and that's the best way to get involved. So our website is MadisonInvesting.co. And on that site anyone can sign up or apply to join our mailing list, but you just have to fill out a very quick form and we send out like a monthly newsletter. And we also of course, you know, for people that ultimately want to become partners, we can talk to them about that too. Not everyone can, but we can talk to them about that. And I'm always happy to take that phone call. But they do have to talk to me on the phone and I promise I'm friendly, but go to MadisonInvesting.co And you can learn more there.

Dave: [00:35:40] Awesome. Awesome. And that web address will be in the show notes. So if you don't have a pen or pencil with you right now, just when you get someplace, click on the show notes. That web address will be there. So we'll get you taken care of that way too. Spencer, I appreciate so much your time and look forward actually to having you back on again, because I think we just barely scratched the surface. I think there's way more we can dig into and way more that we can share. But again, I appreciate your time and thank you so much for being on.

Spencer: [00:36:11] It's been a pleasure, David. I'd be happy to come back on. I didn't realize we're already out of time and we just flew through this thing, so it was a pleasure coming on.

Dave: [00:36:18] Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it.

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